- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 8917
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:01 am
#94530
Below is a conversation between accepted law school student Melanie and PowerScore admissions expert Dave Killoran, regarding Melanie's law school options.
Melanie: "Hello! I am currently trying to decide between law schools and have until April 1st for one of the deadlines. I am interested in pursuing a career in international law (private) and working at a global firm or company. Because I would like to work abroad, not in the US, I limited my law school applications to schools that offered joint/dual JD/LLM programs. I have received the following offers:
Duke University
– Ranked 10th overall and 10th for international law by US News
– I am on the waitlist, so if I am accepted, I do not expect to be offered money
– Over $60k/year plus living expenses would put me $150,000+ in debt
– If accepted, would the cost be worth it?
Boston Univeristy
– Overall rank- 20, international law rank- 32
– Offered me $15k/year, $59k + living in Boston would put me back $150,000+
Arizona State University
– Overall rank- 25, international law rank- 32
– Regional school, 73% of grads stay in state
– Offered full tuition, honors program if I commit by April 1st, otherwise 1st seat deposit due April 15th
– When I visited they told me that although they do not have a JD/LLM program established, they are very willing to help me customize my education, so it would be more difficult than the other schools
Indiana University, Bloomington
– Overall rank- 43, international law rank- 35
– Offered full tuition
Case Western University
– Overall rank- 72, international law rank- 16
– Offered full tuition
– Low overall ranking, but one of the oldest international law programs in the country, which will employers care more about?
I am very torn. I do not want to accrue enormous debt, but I know that in the US to land a job at a major company it makes more sense to go to a well-known, higher ranking school. However, will a school like Duke or Boston carry the same weight abroad? Is it worth turning down full rides to other universities that offer similar programs?
This process has been extremely stressful and it seems like everyone I talk to offers me different advice. My parents (not in the legal field) think I should take one of the scholarships. My colleagues (I work as a legal clerk at a small but successful civil law firm in Houston) have given me mixed responses, but most say go for the name. I do not have any connections with anyone who actually is in the international legal sector, or who has even worked in business abroad. I would appreciate any advice you may have, thank you!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Melanie,
Thanks for the message. The usual path to making a decision like this is to eliminate schools in sub-comparisons, leaving just a handful at the end to fight it out. Here, I think we can do that with some success. Let’s start with ASU, Indiana, and Case. All are on full scholarship for you, and that means in my eyes ASU and Indiana eliminate Case. Note: I don’t factor the international law ranking into this–it’s meaningless to me for these purposes. That’s not always the case with sub-rankings, but it is here because none of these schools are on the top or even near it in those sub-rankings.
Between ASU and Indiana, I would generally lean ASU. It’s an up and coming school that has been rising recently and working hard at it. But I see the lack of a joint program as a negative for you. I have to ask though: how committed and certain are you about this international path? You mention “I do not have any connections with anyone who actually is in the international legal sector, or who has even worked in business abroad” which makes me wonder if this is based on experience with international work or moreso a desire to work in a field that sounds exciting but for which you don’t have a background in for perspective. The answer there is crucial because ASU would win over IU in almost every other scenario.
Setting that aside, you have Duke and BU. I’m not big on creating complicated scenarios from WL schools, so let’s hold off on Duke, and instead play BU vs ASU: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/s ... are/asu/bu. They have some similarities, with BU holding advantages in employment overall as well as employment at big firms + clerkships (41.8% vs 13.3%). However, is that advantage big enough to warrant $150K+ in debt? I personally don’t think so. A lower debt figure would change the calculus, but 150K is a lot of money when one alternative that looks very similar is free.
Last but not least, Duke, a school I know a lot about. When you toss Duke into that last comparison you can see what you are buying: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/s ... su/bu/duke. The big firms + clerkships percentage is now 78.1%, meaning over 3/4 of the class moves into one of those plum jobs that most grads covet (and which is what you are looking for).
In the end, then, for me it would comes down to ASU on full scholarship vs Duke (if you got in) at likely full cost. And that decision depends entirely on how committed you are to biglaw/international law. So I’d examine that first, and then do some serious research into what a debt load of $150K+ looks like in terms of paying it off, and the salary required for that to be sustainable. It’s eye-opening.
I hope that helps, and I’d love to hear back on the choice you make!"
Melanie: "Thank you so much for your response. Your breakdown was very helpful and it is always nice to have an objective point of view.
As far as international law goes, I studied abroad for two separate semesters as an undergrad and worked in Panama as a legal research intern one summer. Traveling and immersing myself in other cultures is a passion of mine, and I know that I want to live and work outside of the US following law school. That is my primary reason for wanting to pursue a dual JD/LLM degree, because it would make it easier for me to practice law abroad and would hopefully differentiate me from other US employee applicants. For the programs I am looking at it, I would spend my 3L year abroad, getting both my JD and LLM in 3 years.
Duke definitely has the best international program, as well as the largest international alumni network. However, as you know, I am waitlisted.
I am hoping to speak with someone from ASU’s study abroad department later today to see if they think a dual degree is possible. When I visited the campus I was told that they were more than willing to work with students on custom degrees, but the uncertainty is nerve-wracking. Additionally, ASU just doesn’t have as many international law courses offered as any of the other schools, so I would be limited in my curriculum.
The main time constraint I am currently concerned about is ASU. I was offered admittance to ASU’s honor program, which I would very much like to be in if I were to attend, but the deadline is April 1st and you are required to sign a binding decision letter of intent. Alternatively, I could pay the $500 on April 1st and hold my seat, but I would miss the honors deadline. I asked for an extension and they said no, but that if there were still spots in the honors program by the second seat deposit deadline, they would take my application into consideration.
The deadline is April 15th for all of the other schools. Boston let me know that I will receive a decision about my scholarship reconsideration request before then, but I was not given a specific date.
Thank you again for your guidance, it is much appreciated!
I have no doubts about wanting to go to law school, but I have been wondering if waiting another year and trying again next cycle would be a better decision. I received a 168 on my LSAT and I think I could reach the 170 mark with additional time. Another year working would also help me save more money. I just do not know if the stress and time would be worth it, or if waiting would even result in better circumstances. I know that I have decent voices and I am thankful for the offers I have received, I just thought the decision would be easier/more obvious."
Melanie: "Hi, sorry to bother you again. After speaking with some of the lawyers at the firm I work with, I think I have further narrowed it down to BU and ASU, provided I am not offered acceptance to Duke."
Dave Killoran: "Check the third paragraph of my original response, it addresses ASU vs BU!"
Melanie: "Hello! I am currently trying to decide between law schools and have until April 1st for one of the deadlines. I am interested in pursuing a career in international law (private) and working at a global firm or company. Because I would like to work abroad, not in the US, I limited my law school applications to schools that offered joint/dual JD/LLM programs. I have received the following offers:
Duke University
– Ranked 10th overall and 10th for international law by US News
– I am on the waitlist, so if I am accepted, I do not expect to be offered money
– Over $60k/year plus living expenses would put me $150,000+ in debt
– If accepted, would the cost be worth it?
Boston Univeristy
– Overall rank- 20, international law rank- 32
– Offered me $15k/year, $59k + living in Boston would put me back $150,000+
Arizona State University
– Overall rank- 25, international law rank- 32
– Regional school, 73% of grads stay in state
– Offered full tuition, honors program if I commit by April 1st, otherwise 1st seat deposit due April 15th
– When I visited they told me that although they do not have a JD/LLM program established, they are very willing to help me customize my education, so it would be more difficult than the other schools
Indiana University, Bloomington
– Overall rank- 43, international law rank- 35
– Offered full tuition
Case Western University
– Overall rank- 72, international law rank- 16
– Offered full tuition
– Low overall ranking, but one of the oldest international law programs in the country, which will employers care more about?
I am very torn. I do not want to accrue enormous debt, but I know that in the US to land a job at a major company it makes more sense to go to a well-known, higher ranking school. However, will a school like Duke or Boston carry the same weight abroad? Is it worth turning down full rides to other universities that offer similar programs?
This process has been extremely stressful and it seems like everyone I talk to offers me different advice. My parents (not in the legal field) think I should take one of the scholarships. My colleagues (I work as a legal clerk at a small but successful civil law firm in Houston) have given me mixed responses, but most say go for the name. I do not have any connections with anyone who actually is in the international legal sector, or who has even worked in business abroad. I would appreciate any advice you may have, thank you!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Melanie,
Thanks for the message. The usual path to making a decision like this is to eliminate schools in sub-comparisons, leaving just a handful at the end to fight it out. Here, I think we can do that with some success. Let’s start with ASU, Indiana, and Case. All are on full scholarship for you, and that means in my eyes ASU and Indiana eliminate Case. Note: I don’t factor the international law ranking into this–it’s meaningless to me for these purposes. That’s not always the case with sub-rankings, but it is here because none of these schools are on the top or even near it in those sub-rankings.
Between ASU and Indiana, I would generally lean ASU. It’s an up and coming school that has been rising recently and working hard at it. But I see the lack of a joint program as a negative for you. I have to ask though: how committed and certain are you about this international path? You mention “I do not have any connections with anyone who actually is in the international legal sector, or who has even worked in business abroad” which makes me wonder if this is based on experience with international work or moreso a desire to work in a field that sounds exciting but for which you don’t have a background in for perspective. The answer there is crucial because ASU would win over IU in almost every other scenario.
Setting that aside, you have Duke and BU. I’m not big on creating complicated scenarios from WL schools, so let’s hold off on Duke, and instead play BU vs ASU: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/s ... are/asu/bu. They have some similarities, with BU holding advantages in employment overall as well as employment at big firms + clerkships (41.8% vs 13.3%). However, is that advantage big enough to warrant $150K+ in debt? I personally don’t think so. A lower debt figure would change the calculus, but 150K is a lot of money when one alternative that looks very similar is free.
Last but not least, Duke, a school I know a lot about. When you toss Duke into that last comparison you can see what you are buying: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/s ... su/bu/duke. The big firms + clerkships percentage is now 78.1%, meaning over 3/4 of the class moves into one of those plum jobs that most grads covet (and which is what you are looking for).
In the end, then, for me it would comes down to ASU on full scholarship vs Duke (if you got in) at likely full cost. And that decision depends entirely on how committed you are to biglaw/international law. So I’d examine that first, and then do some serious research into what a debt load of $150K+ looks like in terms of paying it off, and the salary required for that to be sustainable. It’s eye-opening.
I hope that helps, and I’d love to hear back on the choice you make!"
Melanie: "Thank you so much for your response. Your breakdown was very helpful and it is always nice to have an objective point of view.
As far as international law goes, I studied abroad for two separate semesters as an undergrad and worked in Panama as a legal research intern one summer. Traveling and immersing myself in other cultures is a passion of mine, and I know that I want to live and work outside of the US following law school. That is my primary reason for wanting to pursue a dual JD/LLM degree, because it would make it easier for me to practice law abroad and would hopefully differentiate me from other US employee applicants. For the programs I am looking at it, I would spend my 3L year abroad, getting both my JD and LLM in 3 years.
Duke definitely has the best international program, as well as the largest international alumni network. However, as you know, I am waitlisted.
I am hoping to speak with someone from ASU’s study abroad department later today to see if they think a dual degree is possible. When I visited the campus I was told that they were more than willing to work with students on custom degrees, but the uncertainty is nerve-wracking. Additionally, ASU just doesn’t have as many international law courses offered as any of the other schools, so I would be limited in my curriculum.
The main time constraint I am currently concerned about is ASU. I was offered admittance to ASU’s honor program, which I would very much like to be in if I were to attend, but the deadline is April 1st and you are required to sign a binding decision letter of intent. Alternatively, I could pay the $500 on April 1st and hold my seat, but I would miss the honors deadline. I asked for an extension and they said no, but that if there were still spots in the honors program by the second seat deposit deadline, they would take my application into consideration.
The deadline is April 15th for all of the other schools. Boston let me know that I will receive a decision about my scholarship reconsideration request before then, but I was not given a specific date.
Thank you again for your guidance, it is much appreciated!
I have no doubts about wanting to go to law school, but I have been wondering if waiting another year and trying again next cycle would be a better decision. I received a 168 on my LSAT and I think I could reach the 170 mark with additional time. Another year working would also help me save more money. I just do not know if the stress and time would be worth it, or if waiting would even result in better circumstances. I know that I have decent voices and I am thankful for the offers I have received, I just thought the decision would be easier/more obvious."
Melanie: "Hi, sorry to bother you again. After speaking with some of the lawyers at the firm I work with, I think I have further narrowed it down to BU and ASU, provided I am not offered acceptance to Duke."
Dave Killoran: "Check the third paragraph of my original response, it addresses ASU vs BU!"