- Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:22 am
#85976
Below, an accepted law student named Emily describes her law school choice options, and PowerScore CEO Dave Killoran provides some advice.
Emily: "Hi there,
I would greatly value your insight. I’m struggling to choose between schools with only 2 weeks until I have to make a decision. I am currently choosing between an unconditional $15,000 per year + a summer stipend at UCLA (I just sent a reconsideration email to negotiate further) (COA= $245,826; rank=15) and sticker price at Penn (COA= $283,014; rank=7). I’m very privileged to have no debt from undergrad (I chose the scholarship over prestige!), nor do I have a family to support.
I want to practice public interest right of out law school and pursue “unicorn PI” a few years into my career (e.g. a staff attorney position at a nationally recognized nonprofit). I know I will not be making much money in PI, but I am adamant that big law is not for me. Based on employment stats and my conversations with current students at each school, UCLA seems to have a more robust PI presence than Penn. UCLA places 13.2% in PI, compared to 5.6% at Penn, and students have told me that Penn really pushes big law. Both schools have excellent employment rates overall (over 90%). I am also drawn to the Critical Race Studies program at UCLA, but I recognize that Penn is more prestigious overall, especially on the East Coast.
I’ve lived in Philly for almost five years and would like to experience a new city for law school, so the idea of living somewhere warm and sunny for three years (i.e. LA) is appealing to me. However, I ultimately want to practice in New York, and Penn places significantly better there (45%) compared to UCLA (7%). Also, 77.3% of UCLA grads stay in California. I’ve never even been to California and am not sure I want to hedge my bets on a strong regional school when I have no idea if I’ll even like that region. At the same time, there’s nothing in my personal life that’s keeping me in Philly, and I’m in a stage of life where a cross-country move is very doable.
In summation, the pros of UCLA are a lower COA (and less debt as a PI attorney), a stronger PI presence, the Critical Race Studies Program, and the novelty of a new (and much sunnier!) location. The pros of Penn are stronger placement in NY, overall prestige and name recognition on the East Coast, and the ability to navigate law school without having to also navigate a brand new city.
Thanks so much in advance!"
Emily: "Also, for clarity, the COA I listed does not reflect my scholarship. Subtracting my UCLA scholarship, the adjusted COA would be 200,826."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Emily,
Thanks for the message! This is an interesting choice you face, and somewhat different than many of the scenarios I’m asked about. Oftentimes, the desire for prestige is built around the pursuit of certain job types (namely biglaw), and so there’s a demonstrable job placement advantage that’s being “bought” by paying more. However, in your situation, you already have a clear pathway that won’t trade on that type of job. So, with that in mind, let’s talk about some of the factors in play here, and some things you need to look further at.
First, the UCLA PI advantage in terms of placement is partially because Penn students don’t head down that path. If they wanted to, they could, but for a variety of reasons (including administrative prodding), they tend to go more towards biglaw/clerkships. For example, if you look at clerkships + biglaw placement, UCLA places 58.7% there while Penn places 76.4%. That is a direct function of Penn’s higher ranking and prestige in the legal world (and it’s fairly typical of what you see from high-ranked schools). I say this just so the numbers have context, and they are not seen as causative. That said, UCLA clearly has experience with PI placements, and that is a strength for you here.
Second, I love LA and lived there for years, but it’s not for everyone
Westwood is charming and the surrounding areas are certainly nice, but it’s not going to be the city experience you’ve had in Philadelphia. That may be just what the doctor ordered for you, but spend some time researching what West LA is like, because it’s nothing like DC or NYC. The real city environment is in downtown LA, and you’ll be 10 miles from that, and not likely to go there often (and frankly it’s not an East Coast city experience anyway). Westwood and West LA will be more like living in a busy suburb (again, that’s fine, it’s just different from East Coast cities, or even SF).
Last, look deeply into the LRAP programs at each school. Penn has the Tollrap program to avoid debt for PI grads, but every LRAP program is different, and you’ll actually want to delve deeply into the specific terms of repayment, allowable income post-graduation, etc at each school. But, depending on your qualifications, LRAP can help significantly offset your expected debt, and this is especially applicable to you since you know you’re going PI.
So, in the final analysis, is Penn worth 80K more? Maybe, especially if the LRAP can help bring that way down. Penn gives you national portability and you can compete for any job—PI or otherwise—coming from there, and especially so on the East Coast vs what UCLA will do for you there. But the price is another 3 years in a city you’ve already been in for 5, and passing up a chance for an entirely new environment. I honestly don’t know the best choice for you here, but I also think that both will serve you well going forward. I’d probably use that LRAP info to help decide.
Please let me know if that was useful. Thanks!"
Emily: "Hi Dave,
Thank you so much for taking the time to provide such a detailed response to my question!
I definitely plan to read the LRAP policies in more detail, but on their surface, both Penn and UCLA seem to have strong LRAP programs. The income cap is higher at Penn (<$88,500 to receive assistance with the full loan payment) compared to UCLA (<$75,000 to receive the same). However, I don’t expect to make more than $75,000 as an early-career, public interest attorney, so that difference doesn’t worry me.
If and only if you have the time, my one follow-up question pertains to so-called “unicorn PI.” I would eventually like to work for a nationally recognized nonprofit in New York doing high-impact, public interest litigation. Although I am drawn to the programmatic offerings in PI at UCLA, I have to wonder: Would the prestige of Penn give me a better shot at unicorn PI? I would greatly value your thoughts on this.
Also, thanks for the rundown of Westwood! I’m a big city person through and through, so I will definitely consider the "busy suburb" feel of the area as I make my decision.
Thank you so much again. I sincerely appreciate your help! I’m a big fan of your LSAT bibles and the podcast!
Emily"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Emily,
Great, I’m so glad that helped! And of course I have time for a follow-up
So, as with most things in the legal world, brand names matter at these high-level PI positions. For example, last time I checked the ACLU leadership, it was littered with the top law schools like Yale, Harvard, et al. In your case, Penn simply has a more portable and recognizable name than UCLA, and this is doubly so on the East Coast (as you noted before). If NYC is your goal, without considering costs then Penn gives you an edge that UCLA does not.
Regardless of the school you choose, early on in your 1L year I’d go meet the counselors the school has that specialize in PI, and make friends with them. And network with every public interest attorney that comes through the school. Who you know can have a huge impact, and you want to give yourself the best shot right from the start.
As for Westwood, in lieu of an actual visit, I’d recommend jumping on Google Earth and doing a sort of flyby of the village. Westwood itself certainly has plenty of commerce, and that might help you get a better lay of the land, and to see how the east side is bordered by a neighborhood (as is the north, but that’s Bel Air so it’s ritzy). There’s a ton to like about the location but you should know what you are getting yourself into if you go there. And feel free to ask me any questions if you want–I helped put my significant other at the time through UCLA undergrad and I taught classes on the UCLA campus so I know a lot about it
Thanks!"
Emily: "Thank you so much, Dave! I sincerely appreciate your detailed response to my questions!"
Emily: "Hi there,
I would greatly value your insight. I’m struggling to choose between schools with only 2 weeks until I have to make a decision. I am currently choosing between an unconditional $15,000 per year + a summer stipend at UCLA (I just sent a reconsideration email to negotiate further) (COA= $245,826; rank=15) and sticker price at Penn (COA= $283,014; rank=7). I’m very privileged to have no debt from undergrad (I chose the scholarship over prestige!), nor do I have a family to support.
I want to practice public interest right of out law school and pursue “unicorn PI” a few years into my career (e.g. a staff attorney position at a nationally recognized nonprofit). I know I will not be making much money in PI, but I am adamant that big law is not for me. Based on employment stats and my conversations with current students at each school, UCLA seems to have a more robust PI presence than Penn. UCLA places 13.2% in PI, compared to 5.6% at Penn, and students have told me that Penn really pushes big law. Both schools have excellent employment rates overall (over 90%). I am also drawn to the Critical Race Studies program at UCLA, but I recognize that Penn is more prestigious overall, especially on the East Coast.
I’ve lived in Philly for almost five years and would like to experience a new city for law school, so the idea of living somewhere warm and sunny for three years (i.e. LA) is appealing to me. However, I ultimately want to practice in New York, and Penn places significantly better there (45%) compared to UCLA (7%). Also, 77.3% of UCLA grads stay in California. I’ve never even been to California and am not sure I want to hedge my bets on a strong regional school when I have no idea if I’ll even like that region. At the same time, there’s nothing in my personal life that’s keeping me in Philly, and I’m in a stage of life where a cross-country move is very doable.
In summation, the pros of UCLA are a lower COA (and less debt as a PI attorney), a stronger PI presence, the Critical Race Studies Program, and the novelty of a new (and much sunnier!) location. The pros of Penn are stronger placement in NY, overall prestige and name recognition on the East Coast, and the ability to navigate law school without having to also navigate a brand new city.
Thanks so much in advance!"
Emily: "Also, for clarity, the COA I listed does not reflect my scholarship. Subtracting my UCLA scholarship, the adjusted COA would be 200,826."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Emily,
Thanks for the message! This is an interesting choice you face, and somewhat different than many of the scenarios I’m asked about. Oftentimes, the desire for prestige is built around the pursuit of certain job types (namely biglaw), and so there’s a demonstrable job placement advantage that’s being “bought” by paying more. However, in your situation, you already have a clear pathway that won’t trade on that type of job. So, with that in mind, let’s talk about some of the factors in play here, and some things you need to look further at.
First, the UCLA PI advantage in terms of placement is partially because Penn students don’t head down that path. If they wanted to, they could, but for a variety of reasons (including administrative prodding), they tend to go more towards biglaw/clerkships. For example, if you look at clerkships + biglaw placement, UCLA places 58.7% there while Penn places 76.4%. That is a direct function of Penn’s higher ranking and prestige in the legal world (and it’s fairly typical of what you see from high-ranked schools). I say this just so the numbers have context, and they are not seen as causative. That said, UCLA clearly has experience with PI placements, and that is a strength for you here.
Second, I love LA and lived there for years, but it’s not for everyone
Westwood is charming and the surrounding areas are certainly nice, but it’s not going to be the city experience you’ve had in Philadelphia. That may be just what the doctor ordered for you, but spend some time researching what West LA is like, because it’s nothing like DC or NYC. The real city environment is in downtown LA, and you’ll be 10 miles from that, and not likely to go there often (and frankly it’s not an East Coast city experience anyway). Westwood and West LA will be more like living in a busy suburb (again, that’s fine, it’s just different from East Coast cities, or even SF).Last, look deeply into the LRAP programs at each school. Penn has the Tollrap program to avoid debt for PI grads, but every LRAP program is different, and you’ll actually want to delve deeply into the specific terms of repayment, allowable income post-graduation, etc at each school. But, depending on your qualifications, LRAP can help significantly offset your expected debt, and this is especially applicable to you since you know you’re going PI.
So, in the final analysis, is Penn worth 80K more? Maybe, especially if the LRAP can help bring that way down. Penn gives you national portability and you can compete for any job—PI or otherwise—coming from there, and especially so on the East Coast vs what UCLA will do for you there. But the price is another 3 years in a city you’ve already been in for 5, and passing up a chance for an entirely new environment. I honestly don’t know the best choice for you here, but I also think that both will serve you well going forward. I’d probably use that LRAP info to help decide.
Please let me know if that was useful. Thanks!"
Emily: "Hi Dave,
Thank you so much for taking the time to provide such a detailed response to my question!
I definitely plan to read the LRAP policies in more detail, but on their surface, both Penn and UCLA seem to have strong LRAP programs. The income cap is higher at Penn (<$88,500 to receive assistance with the full loan payment) compared to UCLA (<$75,000 to receive the same). However, I don’t expect to make more than $75,000 as an early-career, public interest attorney, so that difference doesn’t worry me.
If and only if you have the time, my one follow-up question pertains to so-called “unicorn PI.” I would eventually like to work for a nationally recognized nonprofit in New York doing high-impact, public interest litigation. Although I am drawn to the programmatic offerings in PI at UCLA, I have to wonder: Would the prestige of Penn give me a better shot at unicorn PI? I would greatly value your thoughts on this.
Also, thanks for the rundown of Westwood! I’m a big city person through and through, so I will definitely consider the "busy suburb" feel of the area as I make my decision.
Thank you so much again. I sincerely appreciate your help! I’m a big fan of your LSAT bibles and the podcast!
Emily"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Emily,
Great, I’m so glad that helped! And of course I have time for a follow-up
So, as with most things in the legal world, brand names matter at these high-level PI positions. For example, last time I checked the ACLU leadership, it was littered with the top law schools like Yale, Harvard, et al. In your case, Penn simply has a more portable and recognizable name than UCLA, and this is doubly so on the East Coast (as you noted before). If NYC is your goal, without considering costs then Penn gives you an edge that UCLA does not.
Regardless of the school you choose, early on in your 1L year I’d go meet the counselors the school has that specialize in PI, and make friends with them. And network with every public interest attorney that comes through the school. Who you know can have a huge impact, and you want to give yourself the best shot right from the start.
As for Westwood, in lieu of an actual visit, I’d recommend jumping on Google Earth and doing a sort of flyby of the village. Westwood itself certainly has plenty of commerce, and that might help you get a better lay of the land, and to see how the east side is bordered by a neighborhood (as is the north, but that’s Bel Air so it’s ritzy). There’s a ton to like about the location but you should know what you are getting yourself into if you go there. And feel free to ask me any questions if you want–I helped put my significant other at the time through UCLA undergrad and I taught classes on the UCLA campus so I know a lot about it
Thanks!"
Emily: "Thank you so much, Dave! I sincerely appreciate your detailed response to my questions!
"