- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 8917
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:03 am
#45279
Below is a discussion between PowerScore CEO Dave Killoran and a student, Alessandra, regarding Alessandra's law school choice.
Alessandra: "Hi Dave thank you so much for your kind comments to everyone’s questions.
I have a bit of an odd decision in front of me, but it started as a money vs. prestige question so I hope this is the right place for this question.
I’m a non-traditional law student (will be turning 30 in the fall) who has been working in non-profit administration & policy advocacy since graduating in 2011. My aim in going back to school now is to get access to more substantive policy work at national organizations based in NYC, D.C. etc. It is fairly clear to me that to do that I need a JD.
I got into UCLA with a small scholarship, but still would need 90K in loans just to cover tuition, not taking into account COL. Given that I will have fewer earning years, and am committed to working in public interest, I’m concerned about taking on that level of debt.
I also got into Northeastern Law with a full ride. I was attracted to NUSL because of its public interest focus, health law concentration and co-op program. However I’m nervous about the employment statistics with only about 57% employment after graduation.
Northeastern is also attractive because my fiancé is moving to Boston for her graduate degree...
I also applied to public health degrees suspecting correctly that my near perfect GRE score would mean I was a more attractive candidate. I also have the option of completing an MPH for free from a prestigious institution and reapplying to law school again in two years with better scores/credentials.
However, that would mean graduating law school at 35. I’m wondering if it is wise to take my free education at Northeastern and run with it, or listen to friends in law school telling me I should try for T-20 if I want to get a job at the orgs i’m interested in.
Any advice would be most appreciated!
Thank you!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Alessandra,
This is a difficult question because your post-grad aims are so specific. However, it's difficult for me since I have limited experience with that sector; for you, there's an avenue that can help make this decision much easier. What I would do is look at people who have the jobs you seek. you already know a JD is more or elss a requirement, so now go a step farther adn look at the schools that they graduated from. And, weight the more recent grads more heavily in your analysis. someone who got a law degree 30 years ago is far less of a barometer than someone who just got their degree 5 years ago. I suspect that if there is a T20 bias within the profession, you'll pick up on it rather quickly, and if there is not one, you'll see that quickly as well.
On that note, remember that general law grads have been trained in recent years to focus on top schools as the job market tightened. That could very well be the case in your policy field, but it might not be also. that's why looking at job holders will give you clear insight into how the field views these degrees.
As for the MPH degree and then law school, you are right to be concerned about pushing your horizon back even further. I would make the same analysis here, and observe how many people with those degrees are doing the work you want to do, and, equally important, how many are doing that work without that degree. The combination is so specialized that no one can give you a good sense of this other than people in the field.
I hope that helps. Please let me know, thanks!"
Alessandra: "Complicating matters further: I was just waitlisted at two top 5 schools. I’m very (very) debt averse given i’ve been working in the non-profit world and know what kind of salary I can expect, but if those come through it seems hard to turn down...."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Alessandra,
To be honest, I'm not sure what the best strategic decision is, mainly because there are so many moving parts here, and what you've told me about your field isn't definitive enough to make a judgment. So instead, I'll tell you what we *think* will happen in the legal field as well as with law school applications in general. hopefully, that will give you a better perspective on your choices!
First, there has been an increase in applicants this year, but the problem has moreso been that the applicants in the 165 to 180 range increased significantly. So, you had more applicants but more applicants in particular with great LSAT scores. Lots of reasons for that, but the new no-limit--LSAT policy helped a lot there. Next year we expect that bubble to get smaller, meaning we expect about the same number of applicants but not as many in that high score range.
Second, despite that increase this year, law schools are still not at the capacity they were 6-7 years ago, and so they have the ability to take more applicants. In other words, they can meet increased demand, and that mitigates the problem that larger applicant pools pose to applicants in general.
Third, if the ABA stays on course, the GRE will begin to become more accepted. That means that right now it's still really about LSAT scores, but in 2-3 years the GRE will be much closer to equal footing. If you went for that MPH now, if you tried law school later then you'd see a benefit from those high GREs.
Last, the legal field in general is name conscious and always has been, and you've already seen that in the employment stats you have cited. The bigger names *tend* to get better overall jobs, but keep in mind that it is always about individual performance. The top grads at Northeastern do just fine, and the bottom grads at UCLA will struggle. 1L grades are the world, and no matter where you go that will be the key to the job opportunities you have.
In the final analysis, I don't think I can make a definitive call here. There are too many variables floating around, and I feel like you have so much more of the relevant info (including your exact debt tolerance, your true job desires, etc). That's a sort of cop-out on my part, but I think I'd be remiss to state a strong opinion when I don't have one that I feel certain about
Hopefully this helped a little bit though. Thanks!"
Alessandra: "Hi Dave thank you so much for your kind comments to everyone’s questions.
I have a bit of an odd decision in front of me, but it started as a money vs. prestige question so I hope this is the right place for this question.
I’m a non-traditional law student (will be turning 30 in the fall) who has been working in non-profit administration & policy advocacy since graduating in 2011. My aim in going back to school now is to get access to more substantive policy work at national organizations based in NYC, D.C. etc. It is fairly clear to me that to do that I need a JD.
I got into UCLA with a small scholarship, but still would need 90K in loans just to cover tuition, not taking into account COL. Given that I will have fewer earning years, and am committed to working in public interest, I’m concerned about taking on that level of debt.
I also got into Northeastern Law with a full ride. I was attracted to NUSL because of its public interest focus, health law concentration and co-op program. However I’m nervous about the employment statistics with only about 57% employment after graduation.
Northeastern is also attractive because my fiancé is moving to Boston for her graduate degree...
I also applied to public health degrees suspecting correctly that my near perfect GRE score would mean I was a more attractive candidate. I also have the option of completing an MPH for free from a prestigious institution and reapplying to law school again in two years with better scores/credentials.
However, that would mean graduating law school at 35. I’m wondering if it is wise to take my free education at Northeastern and run with it, or listen to friends in law school telling me I should try for T-20 if I want to get a job at the orgs i’m interested in.
Any advice would be most appreciated!
Thank you!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Alessandra,
This is a difficult question because your post-grad aims are so specific. However, it's difficult for me since I have limited experience with that sector; for you, there's an avenue that can help make this decision much easier. What I would do is look at people who have the jobs you seek. you already know a JD is more or elss a requirement, so now go a step farther adn look at the schools that they graduated from. And, weight the more recent grads more heavily in your analysis. someone who got a law degree 30 years ago is far less of a barometer than someone who just got their degree 5 years ago. I suspect that if there is a T20 bias within the profession, you'll pick up on it rather quickly, and if there is not one, you'll see that quickly as well.
On that note, remember that general law grads have been trained in recent years to focus on top schools as the job market tightened. That could very well be the case in your policy field, but it might not be also. that's why looking at job holders will give you clear insight into how the field views these degrees.
As for the MPH degree and then law school, you are right to be concerned about pushing your horizon back even further. I would make the same analysis here, and observe how many people with those degrees are doing the work you want to do, and, equally important, how many are doing that work without that degree. The combination is so specialized that no one can give you a good sense of this other than people in the field.
I hope that helps. Please let me know, thanks!"
Alessandra: "Complicating matters further: I was just waitlisted at two top 5 schools. I’m very (very) debt averse given i’ve been working in the non-profit world and know what kind of salary I can expect, but if those come through it seems hard to turn down...."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Alessandra,
To be honest, I'm not sure what the best strategic decision is, mainly because there are so many moving parts here, and what you've told me about your field isn't definitive enough to make a judgment. So instead, I'll tell you what we *think* will happen in the legal field as well as with law school applications in general. hopefully, that will give you a better perspective on your choices!
First, there has been an increase in applicants this year, but the problem has moreso been that the applicants in the 165 to 180 range increased significantly. So, you had more applicants but more applicants in particular with great LSAT scores. Lots of reasons for that, but the new no-limit--LSAT policy helped a lot there. Next year we expect that bubble to get smaller, meaning we expect about the same number of applicants but not as many in that high score range.
Second, despite that increase this year, law schools are still not at the capacity they were 6-7 years ago, and so they have the ability to take more applicants. In other words, they can meet increased demand, and that mitigates the problem that larger applicant pools pose to applicants in general.
Third, if the ABA stays on course, the GRE will begin to become more accepted. That means that right now it's still really about LSAT scores, but in 2-3 years the GRE will be much closer to equal footing. If you went for that MPH now, if you tried law school later then you'd see a benefit from those high GREs.
Last, the legal field in general is name conscious and always has been, and you've already seen that in the employment stats you have cited. The bigger names *tend* to get better overall jobs, but keep in mind that it is always about individual performance. The top grads at Northeastern do just fine, and the bottom grads at UCLA will struggle. 1L grades are the world, and no matter where you go that will be the key to the job opportunities you have.
In the final analysis, I don't think I can make a definitive call here. There are too many variables floating around, and I feel like you have so much more of the relevant info (including your exact debt tolerance, your true job desires, etc). That's a sort of cop-out on my part, but I think I'd be remiss to state a strong opinion when I don't have one that I feel certain about
Hopefully this helped a little bit though. Thanks!"