- Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:34 am
#45277
Below is a coversation between PowerScore CEO Dave Killoran and a student, Andrew, regarding Andrew's law school admissions choice. Another student, Nikki, weighs in with some advice as well.
Andrew: "Hi,
Thank you for your posts, this page has been very helpful. I was hoping you could give me some advice for my situation. I see you’ve already addressed several issues that are very similar to mine and I’ve read the posts for reference, but my situation is a little different and I’m wondering what you have to say.
I want to go to school in New York City and I also plan to work there after graduating. I’d be finishing school at the age of 27. I am between Fordham (which would leave me with about $150,000 of debt after graduation) and St. John’s. (which would leave me with about $23,000 in debt after graduation). This is after negotiating with schools so these are final offers. I live in the area and living expenses/transport are basically irrelevant in this decision.
I’ve read the LST reports and I see Fordham places more in Biglaw. Biglaw is currently appealing to me and it is something that I would like to have the option of pursuing, but I am not committed to it. I am much more concerned with having better legal career opportunities in general, not just Biglaw opportunities. I believe that Fordham would generally provide me with greater legal career opportunities but I’m having a difficult time determining whether those extra opportunities are worth an additional $127,000. I saw from an earlier post that in your opinion, finishing Fordham with about $195,000 in debt would probably not be worth it. But here in my case the debt would be somewhat smaller and I’m wondering if you think that changes my situation at all.
Thank you so much for your help!"
Nikki: "Hi Andrew - take my advice with a grain of salt but I think I'm the poster you're referring to with respect to fordham. I decided to go to fordham and it has a very high placement in biglaw if thats what you want to do. I think 30-40%. There is less pressure to get a high gpa to interview with the big firms - I think the gpa "cut off" is about 3.3 (b+) whereas I am assuming its higher at St. Johns (meaning more pressure to get the best grades). There is always pressure for good grades - but its comforting knowing that you can get straight B+ and still get an interview with a large firm. I also know a 3L who got terrible grades in her first year and was able to get a biglaw interview (and offer) in her third year. Not ideal - but she's shown me it's possible. Fordham is very well connected and there are a ton of firms who come to interview on campus. I love the city, the campus, the people. Upperclassmen are so incredibly helpful. Just my 2 cents - I'm rushing because its finals time and its incredibly stressful but I've met a lot of great people here and have been afforded a lot of opportunities and if you'd like to talk further let me know and I'll give you my email. N"
Dave Killoran: "Thanks for weighing in Nikki, and you make an excellent point about grades! I'm also glad things are working out, which is great proof to everyone that you have to go with your gut feeling in all of these choices
"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Andrew,
I was glad to see Nikki weigh in with some thoughts, because there is no substitute for hearing from someone at the school, especially someone who faced a similar decision.
Going back to my comment above in reply to Nikki, the point I made was that it wasn't an easy choice, and I didn't feel Cardozo was a slam dunk by any means. As I said, there literally was "no best answer." Your case is actually not much different. The thing with Nikki's choice was she was looking at an extra $100K to attend Fordham, which, as it turns out, is very much the same situation you are in with Fordham and St. Johns. I've stated elsewhere that I'm debt averse when it comes to these decisions, but you also have to know exactly what you are paying for, as well as whether that's worth it to *you.* There are times when paying more is somewhat obviously the best decision and others where it is not. In your case, I get the feeling you are leaning toward Fordham since the biglaw employment numbers are better (an undeniable point, as seen here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/stjohns/fordham/) and more or less want to know if it's okay to take on that $127K. There's a good chance it could be, and also a chance it's not—this is the unfortunate problem everyone faces when making these decisions. The one advantage you have over Nikki is that even though your margin costs are the same (the $100K), your overall cost is lower since you will come out with $127K total. That figure may be reasonable enough to you to make it worth the much better big firm/clerkship chances.
I suppose that's a long-winded way of saying that the lower overall debt does make a difference in my opinion, although again you have to be comfortable with what that looks like on a monthly basis. I always say plan for the worst as far as 1L grades, that way you know the worst possible outcome, but fortunately most people don't end up in the worst-case scenario.
I'm not sure that's a perfectly clear answer, but hopefully it helps a bit. Please let me know. Thanks!"
Andrew: "Hi Nikki and Dave,
Thank you so much for posting, I really appreciate the input! This is certainly a tough decision with no clear answer! But any information I can get will surely help.
It’s interesting to hear about Fordham‘s lower pressure to get high grades to get a Biglaw interview. However, I’m basing my decision between Fordham and St. John’s more on what opportunities each school offers in the private sector that aren’t Biglaw because I can’t count on being at the top (or top 30%) at either school. I see a lot is possible at Fordham with the example of the student with poor grades who got a great job offer anyways, but I’m assuming that is an exception rather than the norm. I’d be able to make a more informed decision if I had a better understanding of what can roughly be expected by finishing towards the middle of my class at each school. Do you have any insight into this? I unfortunately don’t have a very clear picture of this despite previous research and talking to admissions. I know this is a pretty tricky and specific question which is tough to answer, but any information would be greatly appreciated!
I have looked into what the worst case scenario would probably look like going to Fordham and it seems manageable although certainly not desirable.
Also, Nikki- since you decided to go to Fordham, would you mind if I ask what your thought process and rationale for doing so was despite the debt you were going to incur?
I can talk by email too if that’s easier!
Thank you so much!"
Nikki: "Hi Andrew,
I was kind of of the mindset when applying that I would go to the best school I got into no matter the debt. Then, when the actual number-crunching made the debt seem more real, is when I starting second guessing that choice and came on here to check it out. I decided to go with my gut and go to the best school I got into (which was fordham) but I can't say I would have followed my gut if I was accepted at a higher ranked school with 300k debt. Like Dave said its whats best for YOU - and I think for me I was willing to take the risk that I might end up paying my debt off longer if I didn't get the grades. If you're really not willing to take the risk then don't do it just for the name because years from now unless its ivy league not many people care about the name anyway."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the reply! The answer you seek here isn't capable of being given in a specific fashion, and the reason is that the legal hiring environment can't be predicted three years out with any accuracy. If things are great, more doors will be open whereas if things are bad then fewer doors will be open, as you would expect. However, that said, the typical belief is that, in comparison, graduating in the middle of the class at Fordham would result in generally better opportunities than graduating in the middle of the class at St. Johns regardless of the market (unless it's so bad that no jobs at all are available, as in a major economic crisis, which is unlikely).
I agree that the worst case scenario isn't desirable, but if it is manageable then that's a valuable piece of information for you as you ponder this decision.
Thanks!"
Andrew: "Thank you so much!"
Andrew: "Hi,
Thank you for your posts, this page has been very helpful. I was hoping you could give me some advice for my situation. I see you’ve already addressed several issues that are very similar to mine and I’ve read the posts for reference, but my situation is a little different and I’m wondering what you have to say.
I want to go to school in New York City and I also plan to work there after graduating. I’d be finishing school at the age of 27. I am between Fordham (which would leave me with about $150,000 of debt after graduation) and St. John’s. (which would leave me with about $23,000 in debt after graduation). This is after negotiating with schools so these are final offers. I live in the area and living expenses/transport are basically irrelevant in this decision.
I’ve read the LST reports and I see Fordham places more in Biglaw. Biglaw is currently appealing to me and it is something that I would like to have the option of pursuing, but I am not committed to it. I am much more concerned with having better legal career opportunities in general, not just Biglaw opportunities. I believe that Fordham would generally provide me with greater legal career opportunities but I’m having a difficult time determining whether those extra opportunities are worth an additional $127,000. I saw from an earlier post that in your opinion, finishing Fordham with about $195,000 in debt would probably not be worth it. But here in my case the debt would be somewhat smaller and I’m wondering if you think that changes my situation at all.
Thank you so much for your help!"
Nikki: "Hi Andrew - take my advice with a grain of salt but I think I'm the poster you're referring to with respect to fordham. I decided to go to fordham and it has a very high placement in biglaw if thats what you want to do. I think 30-40%. There is less pressure to get a high gpa to interview with the big firms - I think the gpa "cut off" is about 3.3 (b+) whereas I am assuming its higher at St. Johns (meaning more pressure to get the best grades). There is always pressure for good grades - but its comforting knowing that you can get straight B+ and still get an interview with a large firm. I also know a 3L who got terrible grades in her first year and was able to get a biglaw interview (and offer) in her third year. Not ideal - but she's shown me it's possible. Fordham is very well connected and there are a ton of firms who come to interview on campus. I love the city, the campus, the people. Upperclassmen are so incredibly helpful. Just my 2 cents - I'm rushing because its finals time and its incredibly stressful but I've met a lot of great people here and have been afforded a lot of opportunities and if you'd like to talk further let me know and I'll give you my email. N"
Dave Killoran: "Thanks for weighing in Nikki, and you make an excellent point about grades! I'm also glad things are working out, which is great proof to everyone that you have to go with your gut feeling in all of these choices
"Dave Killoran: "Hi Andrew,
I was glad to see Nikki weigh in with some thoughts, because there is no substitute for hearing from someone at the school, especially someone who faced a similar decision.
Going back to my comment above in reply to Nikki, the point I made was that it wasn't an easy choice, and I didn't feel Cardozo was a slam dunk by any means. As I said, there literally was "no best answer." Your case is actually not much different. The thing with Nikki's choice was she was looking at an extra $100K to attend Fordham, which, as it turns out, is very much the same situation you are in with Fordham and St. Johns. I've stated elsewhere that I'm debt averse when it comes to these decisions, but you also have to know exactly what you are paying for, as well as whether that's worth it to *you.* There are times when paying more is somewhat obviously the best decision and others where it is not. In your case, I get the feeling you are leaning toward Fordham since the biglaw employment numbers are better (an undeniable point, as seen here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/stjohns/fordham/) and more or less want to know if it's okay to take on that $127K. There's a good chance it could be, and also a chance it's not—this is the unfortunate problem everyone faces when making these decisions. The one advantage you have over Nikki is that even though your margin costs are the same (the $100K), your overall cost is lower since you will come out with $127K total. That figure may be reasonable enough to you to make it worth the much better big firm/clerkship chances.
I suppose that's a long-winded way of saying that the lower overall debt does make a difference in my opinion, although again you have to be comfortable with what that looks like on a monthly basis. I always say plan for the worst as far as 1L grades, that way you know the worst possible outcome, but fortunately most people don't end up in the worst-case scenario.
I'm not sure that's a perfectly clear answer, but hopefully it helps a bit. Please let me know. Thanks!"
Andrew: "Hi Nikki and Dave,
Thank you so much for posting, I really appreciate the input! This is certainly a tough decision with no clear answer! But any information I can get will surely help.
It’s interesting to hear about Fordham‘s lower pressure to get high grades to get a Biglaw interview. However, I’m basing my decision between Fordham and St. John’s more on what opportunities each school offers in the private sector that aren’t Biglaw because I can’t count on being at the top (or top 30%) at either school. I see a lot is possible at Fordham with the example of the student with poor grades who got a great job offer anyways, but I’m assuming that is an exception rather than the norm. I’d be able to make a more informed decision if I had a better understanding of what can roughly be expected by finishing towards the middle of my class at each school. Do you have any insight into this? I unfortunately don’t have a very clear picture of this despite previous research and talking to admissions. I know this is a pretty tricky and specific question which is tough to answer, but any information would be greatly appreciated!
I have looked into what the worst case scenario would probably look like going to Fordham and it seems manageable although certainly not desirable.
Also, Nikki- since you decided to go to Fordham, would you mind if I ask what your thought process and rationale for doing so was despite the debt you were going to incur?
I can talk by email too if that’s easier!
Thank you so much!"
Nikki: "Hi Andrew,
I was kind of of the mindset when applying that I would go to the best school I got into no matter the debt. Then, when the actual number-crunching made the debt seem more real, is when I starting second guessing that choice and came on here to check it out. I decided to go with my gut and go to the best school I got into (which was fordham) but I can't say I would have followed my gut if I was accepted at a higher ranked school with 300k debt. Like Dave said its whats best for YOU - and I think for me I was willing to take the risk that I might end up paying my debt off longer if I didn't get the grades. If you're really not willing to take the risk then don't do it just for the name because years from now unless its ivy league not many people care about the name anyway."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the reply! The answer you seek here isn't capable of being given in a specific fashion, and the reason is that the legal hiring environment can't be predicted three years out with any accuracy. If things are great, more doors will be open whereas if things are bad then fewer doors will be open, as you would expect. However, that said, the typical belief is that, in comparison, graduating in the middle of the class at Fordham would result in generally better opportunities than graduating in the middle of the class at St. Johns regardless of the market (unless it's so bad that no jobs at all are available, as in a major economic crisis, which is unlikely).
I agree that the worst case scenario isn't desirable, but if it is manageable then that's a valuable piece of information for you as you ponder this decision.
Thanks!"
Andrew: "Thank you so much!"