- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 8923
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:12 am
#34288
What follows is the transcript of a conversation between a student, Taylor, and one of our Admissions gurus, Dave, regarding Taylor's choice between two law schools.
Taylor: "Dave, Thanks so much for all your input into everyone's predicaments. Here is mine:
I've been accepted at UC Berkeley, UVA, GW, and BYU (all without scholarship, except for a small one at BYU). I've pretty much ruled out Berkeley and GW based on where I want to end up, where I think I'll thrive, etc. and have narrowed it down to UVA and BYU. I am LDS (Mormon), so I know the kind of social environment I'd be signing up for at BYU and I'm okay with that. I'm also married with a 1 year-old, so we are taking that into account when looking at location, cost of living, etc. What I'm most concerned about is opportunity and debt. Below is what I've gathered based on the LST reports (not taking into account interest accrued over time).
UVA
No scholarship + $60,000 total cost of living = approx. $231,000 total debt
Employment/underemployment scores: 84.5/12
USNews Rank: 8
ATL Rank: 6
BYU
$12,310 per year - 1/4 scholarship per year + $60,000 total cost of living = approx. $88,000 total debt
Employment/underemployment scores: 55.6/27.8
USNews Rank: 46
ATL Rank: 40
Cost of living in Provo and Charlottesville is comparable, so it's not necessarily a large factor. However, it does help put things into perspective when looking at total debt.
As far as career aspirations go, I am shooting for a federal clerkship and then biglaw for a few years in either NY or DC. I'm not completely sure what I'd like to do after that point, but I want to leave as many doors open as possible, especially since I'm interested in politics, government work, etc. BYU has a great alumni network, with connections all over the country, but I don't know if it will be enough for me to land the jobs and experience I want. I'd definitely need to be in the top 10%, which may be difficult considering how competitive of an environment BYU law is. UVA, on the other hand, seems to be ideal for my career aspirations but I'm worried about going into that much debt.
A lot of the advice I have been getting is from BYU alum and other Mormons. Most seem to say that unless one gets into HYS, they should go to BYU. I'm not so sure. That being said, I am very interested in hearing you weigh in on the matter! Thank you for your time."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Taylor, Thanks for the question! This is a challenging decision, and I tend to think that no matter what you decide you'll have some uncertainties over whether it was the right decision, and that is because there are positives on both sides here.
While reading what you wrote, there were two things that jumped out at me, and the first was your statement that "I am shooting for a federal clerkship and then biglaw for a few years in either NY or DC." If that was the only consideration, then obviously UVA would be the better choice as shown by large firm/clerkships percentages: UVA = 54.5%/15.8% vs BYU = 7.5%/2.3%. That's 70% vs 10%, or a 7 times better chance at the path you seek at UVA. Basically, the two schools are on different planets as far as job placement, which is to be expected when one of them is a T10 school. I realize that BYU has a strong alumni network (and one that tends to have stronger personal relationships than many others), but it can't compete with the sheer power of the UVA name.
So, based on the above it would seem that I am advocating for UVA. But then the second consideration comes in, which your friends nicely summed up by saying, "unless one gets into HYS, they should go to BYU." This is a saying you hear with some frequency, and the reason it is so popular is that there's a degree of truth to it. The HYS schools are like the superpowers of the law school universe, and offer a name that opens doors no matter where you go. UVA, while outstanding, is a cut below those schools (maybe two cuts if you look at the CCN trio as its own level). You are rightly concerned about going into $231K of debt, and I personally have a hard time justifying taking that on. That is especially the case since BYU is generally considered one of the best deals in the law school world — a well-regarded school at a relatively reasonable price.
So, that probably didn't help much
I think that given your background and comfort with Provo and the BYU school environment, I'd probably say avoid the massive debt and go with BYU. It's a very good school and the price is very nice. But I understand the siren call of a top-ranked school like UVA, and in one sense you are directly lowering your chances of obtaining the career path you seek if you choose BYU. Interestingly enough, in this case we can quantify that trade, as those improved job outcomes cost exactly $143,000 more. Is that too much to bear? I can't say, but I would urge you to use something like the Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... lator.aspx to get a sense of how that extra $143K affects monthly payments.
Just as an aside, a decision like this has elements of game theory behind it, but one way to look at this is that UVA offers a wider array of outcomes, including both good and bad results. The potential job outcomes are seemingly better on the top end, but if things didn't go well the debt load could result in some very negative results. BYU, on the other hand, could be characterized as resulting in a narrower set of outcomes, with few potential bad outcomes but also fewer topline results. You could consider this the choice of locking in a more reliable set of middle-range outcomes (and again, this is generalizing; you could go to BYU and have a result that is the best possible one for you) vs a more risk-taking approach that increases the possibilities at both ends. If it helps, you should consider what type of person and risk-taker you are—does one of those two characterizations immediately feel more comfortable to you?
Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!"
Taylor: "Dave, Thanks so much for all your input into everyone's predicaments. Here is mine:
I've been accepted at UC Berkeley, UVA, GW, and BYU (all without scholarship, except for a small one at BYU). I've pretty much ruled out Berkeley and GW based on where I want to end up, where I think I'll thrive, etc. and have narrowed it down to UVA and BYU. I am LDS (Mormon), so I know the kind of social environment I'd be signing up for at BYU and I'm okay with that. I'm also married with a 1 year-old, so we are taking that into account when looking at location, cost of living, etc. What I'm most concerned about is opportunity and debt. Below is what I've gathered based on the LST reports (not taking into account interest accrued over time).
UVA
No scholarship + $60,000 total cost of living = approx. $231,000 total debt
Employment/underemployment scores: 84.5/12
USNews Rank: 8
ATL Rank: 6
BYU
$12,310 per year - 1/4 scholarship per year + $60,000 total cost of living = approx. $88,000 total debt
Employment/underemployment scores: 55.6/27.8
USNews Rank: 46
ATL Rank: 40
Cost of living in Provo and Charlottesville is comparable, so it's not necessarily a large factor. However, it does help put things into perspective when looking at total debt.
As far as career aspirations go, I am shooting for a federal clerkship and then biglaw for a few years in either NY or DC. I'm not completely sure what I'd like to do after that point, but I want to leave as many doors open as possible, especially since I'm interested in politics, government work, etc. BYU has a great alumni network, with connections all over the country, but I don't know if it will be enough for me to land the jobs and experience I want. I'd definitely need to be in the top 10%, which may be difficult considering how competitive of an environment BYU law is. UVA, on the other hand, seems to be ideal for my career aspirations but I'm worried about going into that much debt.
A lot of the advice I have been getting is from BYU alum and other Mormons. Most seem to say that unless one gets into HYS, they should go to BYU. I'm not so sure. That being said, I am very interested in hearing you weigh in on the matter! Thank you for your time."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Taylor, Thanks for the question! This is a challenging decision, and I tend to think that no matter what you decide you'll have some uncertainties over whether it was the right decision, and that is because there are positives on both sides here.
While reading what you wrote, there were two things that jumped out at me, and the first was your statement that "I am shooting for a federal clerkship and then biglaw for a few years in either NY or DC." If that was the only consideration, then obviously UVA would be the better choice as shown by large firm/clerkships percentages: UVA = 54.5%/15.8% vs BYU = 7.5%/2.3%. That's 70% vs 10%, or a 7 times better chance at the path you seek at UVA. Basically, the two schools are on different planets as far as job placement, which is to be expected when one of them is a T10 school. I realize that BYU has a strong alumni network (and one that tends to have stronger personal relationships than many others), but it can't compete with the sheer power of the UVA name.
So, based on the above it would seem that I am advocating for UVA. But then the second consideration comes in, which your friends nicely summed up by saying, "unless one gets into HYS, they should go to BYU." This is a saying you hear with some frequency, and the reason it is so popular is that there's a degree of truth to it. The HYS schools are like the superpowers of the law school universe, and offer a name that opens doors no matter where you go. UVA, while outstanding, is a cut below those schools (maybe two cuts if you look at the CCN trio as its own level). You are rightly concerned about going into $231K of debt, and I personally have a hard time justifying taking that on. That is especially the case since BYU is generally considered one of the best deals in the law school world — a well-regarded school at a relatively reasonable price.
So, that probably didn't help much
I think that given your background and comfort with Provo and the BYU school environment, I'd probably say avoid the massive debt and go with BYU. It's a very good school and the price is very nice. But I understand the siren call of a top-ranked school like UVA, and in one sense you are directly lowering your chances of obtaining the career path you seek if you choose BYU. Interestingly enough, in this case we can quantify that trade, as those improved job outcomes cost exactly $143,000 more. Is that too much to bear? I can't say, but I would urge you to use something like the Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... lator.aspx to get a sense of how that extra $143K affects monthly payments.Just as an aside, a decision like this has elements of game theory behind it, but one way to look at this is that UVA offers a wider array of outcomes, including both good and bad results. The potential job outcomes are seemingly better on the top end, but if things didn't go well the debt load could result in some very negative results. BYU, on the other hand, could be characterized as resulting in a narrower set of outcomes, with few potential bad outcomes but also fewer topline results. You could consider this the choice of locking in a more reliable set of middle-range outcomes (and again, this is generalizing; you could go to BYU and have a result that is the best possible one for you) vs a more risk-taking approach that increases the possibilities at both ends. If it helps, you should consider what type of person and risk-taker you are—does one of those two characterizations immediately feel more comfortable to you?
Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!"